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----- silence for 20 minutes ----- [01:25] <braintone> pedronis - r20596 - pass at fixining graph commands in pdbplus
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----- silence for 30 minutes ----- [02:02] <braintone> pedronis - r20598 - pass at fixing attribute annotation related commands (now they takes either classes or classdefs)
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[02:31] <braintone> pedronis - r20600 - * make the code more robust against getuniqueclassdef for a specialized class * findfuncs | finclasses -> more general finddescs <kind> <expr> pdbplus extension commands should be reasonably fixed now
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----- silence for 23 minutes ----- [11:31] <hpk> arigo: hi, having a bit of a rest day?
[11:33] <arigo> hi
[11:34] <arigo> should I ? :-)
[11:34] <hpk> maybe?
[11:34] <hpk> :)
[11:35] <hpk> i just think that the next week will be quite busy and you have been quite working a lot lately asfaics
[11:35] <hpk> well, at least i am having a semi-breakday myself today
[11:36] <hpk> and i hope that (merlinux) things get sorted to a degree soon that i can start pypy coding again :)
[11:39] <hpk> or :/ rather
[11:40] <braintone> arigo - r20603 - (pedronis, arigo) Localized graph page: fixed the labels, added all edges between the displayed nodes.
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[11:55] <mwh> arigo, pedronis: hi
[11:55] <arigo> hi
[11:56] <mwh> question for this week in pypy: is the reason pypy-c-20573-two-spaces is so big likely to be because of duplicated multimethod implementations?
[11:57] <arigo> no
[11:57] <mwh> oh
[11:57] <arigo> because of all the prebuilt stuff
[11:57] <arigo> most of it comes twice
[11:58] <arigo> all the app-level 'sys' and '__builtin__' content, for example
[11:58] <arigo> the executable is huge but compresses extremely well because it's mostly very regular data instead of dense code :-)
[11:59] <mwh> heh
[12:00] <mwh> i guess in e.g. cpython building things at start up instead of having them as static data in the executable could be viewed as a form of compression
[12:00] <xorAxAx> a huffman encoding c compiler would be nice :)
[12:00] <arigo> yes
[12:00] <arigo> we also thought about serializing and possibly compressing a bit this data, and unpacking it at start-up
[12:01] <xorAxAx> but having it in the image means that more memory can be shared which will yield an advantage for multiple processes
[12:01] <arigo> it's mostly disadvantageous, but some back-ends might require it because they cannot handle complex inter-related prebuilt data
[12:01] <arigo> xorAxAx: yes
[12:01] <mwh> that sounds suspiciously useful for a research project to do
[12:01] <mwh> ah
[12:02] <arigo> also, we *may* at one point use an unpacking trick to expand any number of new spaces at run-time
[12:02] <mwh> yes
[12:02] <xorAxAx> how can the spaces be switched at runtime?
[12:03] <arigo> we don't know :-)
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[12:03] <xorAxAx> %-)
[12:03] <arigo> as a first approximation, it's a way to start a new "sub-interpreter"
[12:03] <arigo> you'd do 'import sys.pypy; sys.pypy.newinterpreter()'
[12:03] <mwh> well, having two completely independent spaces is one thing
[12:04] <arigo> and then communicate back and forth
[12:04] <mwh> not terribly interesting though
[12:04] <xorAxAx> hmm, then you could implement threading without a lock, right?
[12:04] <arigo> yes, but we need a bit more work to get something better than you can already do by starting a sub-process
[12:04] <xorAxAx> as long as there are serialised calls into that interpreter
[12:04] <mwh> so these techpaper.pdf and agility.pdf documents are required by CCC?
[12:04] <arigo> mwh: yes
[12:05] <hpk> we basically had a choice of providing a paper earlier on, they don't require a paper per se
[12:05] <mwh> ok
[12:05] <hpk> but we promised on and it makes some sense because we haven't been publishing an awful lot regarding papers
[12:05] <mwh> "the CCC asks that speakers provide papers to accompany their talks" ?
[12:06] <hpk> yes, they publish proceedings as a book
[12:06] <hpk> and hand it out at the conf
[12:06] <mwh> oh cool
[12:06] <hpk> and one can order it through some ISBN
[12:06] <xorAxAx> btw, seeing that pysizer is hosted on codespeak, can somebody imagine why my linker doesnt find PyDictIterItem_Type in the import lib?
[12:08] <mwh> xorAxAx: ask nick
[12:08] <mwh> he replies to email, eventually :)
[12:08] <xorAxAx> mwh: ok, i could try mail
[12:08] <mwh> um, er, are you using from svn
[12:08] <xorAxAx> no
[12:09] <mwh> you might want to try it, i saw a commit with some of those words in recently :)
[12:09] <xorAxAx> ah, thaks
[12:09] <xorAxAx> s/thaks/thanks/
[12:10] <mwh> so this week in pypy 5 talks about SomePBC-refactoring and the CCC papers
[12:10] <mwh> anything else worth mentioning?
[12:10] <xorAxAx> .oO(hmm, didnt help, i will send a mail)
[12:11] <braintone> mwh - r20604 - This Week in PyPy 5, rev 1
[12:12] <hpk> mwh: you could mention that we want to get pypy-sync back into place after the gborg sprint
[12:13] <mwh> ok
[12:13] <hpk> i probably can volunteer to care for getting it restarted - but i'd first like to see how things work out in brazil connectivity-wise
[12:16] <mwh> i wonder how much of a dig at certain consortium members i dare have in this
[12:17] <mwh> of course
[12:17] <mwh> i won't be able to attend pypy-sync the week after the sprint :)
[12:18] <mwh> i'll be travelling
[12:18] <hpk> oh, there are ways :)
[12:18] <mwh> (i think, i might be hanging around an airport at that time)
[12:21] Nick change: pedronis -> pedronis_afk
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[12:23] <braintone> mwh - r20605 - a bit of blather about pypy-sync
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[12:40] <braintone> hpk - r20606 - - more on pypy-sync - more on CCC and that people can still attend
[12:41] <hpk> mwh: feel free to fix my english and refactor
[12:41] <mwh> will do :)
[12:41] <mwh> and thanks, good changes
[12:42] <hpk> oh, there is something else
[12:42] <hpk> i am going to give a talk on monday in Bonn at the German EU office regarding PyPy and its technical organisation
[12:43] <hpk> (in german)
[12:43] <hpk> and there is the EU workshop in Bruxelles on the 8th ... might be interesting to have some brief info about those ... shoud i write a bit?
[12:44] <mwh> hang on, let me check in my 'language refactoring'
[12:44] <mwh> i think you've kind of neutered my final sentence
[12:44] <mwh> ok, so talking about phase 2 and phase 3 is probably a bit eu-specific
[12:45] <hpk> i see what you meabn
[12:45] <hpk> let's re-introduce the explicit note somehow that the project gains more areas/fields of work everyday and thus synchronization is like more neccessary ...
[12:45] <hpk> but it's not neccessary to talk about phase 2 and 3 in particular IMO
[12:46] <mwh> ok
[12:50] <braintone> mwh - r20607 - make holger's words look more like i wrote them and remove a little repetition.
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[12:50] <mwh> hpk: your turn :)
[12:50] Nick change: pedronis_afk -> pedronis
[12:53] <hpk> mwh: you left out mentioning GC?
[12:54] <mwh> yes
[12:54] <mwh> i think it's intrinsically related to the jit
[12:54] <mwh> and my point was not at all to list what were up to
[12:54] <mwh> just that it becomes a little more varied now
[12:54] <hpk> and to stackless and whatnot, i'd suggest adding it to the enumeration to emphasize the point of diversity ... but no big deal.
[12:55] <mwh> well, feel free
[12:58] <braintone> hpk - r20609 - - added some bits about background EU things - added 4 letters (", GC") to pypy-sync forecast
[12:59] <mwh> :)
[13:00] <braintone> hpk - r20610 - add the date of the bruxelles workshop
[13:00] <hpk> mwh: feel free to michael-ify
[13:00] <xorAxAx> .oO(hmm, that are just 2 letters :-))
[13:01] <hpk> (unsigned) chars then :)
[13:01] <mwh> hpk: "quite some X" where X != time always reads oddly to me
[13:01] <xorAxAx> :-)
[13:02] <hpk> mwh: ok, then s/quite some//
[13:02] <mwh> and "organisations funding and organizing the EU PyPy project "
[13:02] <hpk> and feel free to hit me again about it
[13:02] <hpk> yeah, the double orga
[13:02] <hpk> ?
[13:02] <mwh> the organization *funding* the project is the EU :)
[13:03] <hpk> well
[13:03] <hpk> actually it's co-funding
[13:03] <mwh> oh, true
[13:03] <hpk> the pypy project is not fully funded by the EU and this little fact is often overlooked :)
[13:03] <mwh> true
[13:03] <mwh> *I* am fully funded by the EU
[13:03] <hpk> but still the sentence is not too elegant
[13:04] <hpk> mwh: yes, there are number of different perspectives on the same thing :)
[13:05] <hpk> so i'd like to talk of "partially EU funded" usually
[13:06] <mwh> noted
[13:07] <hpk> the partial is not only relating to the 50% for companies but also to the contributors who are not funded (PPs are also only very partially funded - and it's still not even working)
[13:08] <mwh> :(
[13:09] <hpk> indeed
[13:10] <hpk> but we did shift some private money around lately and maybe that can be turned into some kind of model
[13:11] <xorAxAx> "PPs"?
[13:11] <mwh> "recognized as an interesting "live" project within the EU context."
[13:11] <mwh> what do you mean by EU context here?
[13:11] <mwh> within the EU itself?
[13:11] <hpk> xorAxAx: "physical persons", a term the EU uses for consortium members that are not organisations but real persons
[13:11] <xorAxAx> ok
[13:12] <hpk> mwh: yes, mostly within the EU (like from people working for the EU) but also from people following EU projects
[13:12] <mwh> "in the EU's corner of the world" ?
[13:12] <hpk> fine with me
[13:13] <xorAxAx> corner sounds interesting :)
[13:13] <xorAxAx> the EU is in the corner and america in the center of the universe^Wworld
[13:16] <hpk> or maybe there are only corners in a p2p-world
[13:16] <braintone> mwh - r20611 - "michael-ification"
[13:17] <hpk> mwh: all fine by me
[13:17] <mwh> cool
[13:17] <mwh> thanks
[13:17] <hpk> thank you
[13:18] <hpk> i recommend to send it out, otherwise i will think of more :)
[13:21] Action: xorAxAx still cant believe that bf gets a 2x speedup in a jit compared to a optimising c compiler
[13:21] <hpk> xorAxAx: you know about the Dynamo project?
[13:22] <xorAxAx> hpk: no
[13:22] <pedronis> notice also that thing is full of pointers, different aliasing assumptions can make a huge difference
[13:22] <xorAxAx> hp
[13:23] <mwh> hpk: sent :)
[13:23] <braintone> arigo - r20613 -
[13:23] <hpk> xorAxAx: i think http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ivme03.pdf or other documents linked from the PyPy prpopsal are useful
[13:24] <xorAxAx> ok
[13:24] <hpk> it's about dynamically (JIT) optimizing starting from a fully compiled binary
[13:24] <hpk> although the paper link is probably more about an interpreter approach (and i am too lazy to find the other one :)
[13:28] <xorAxAx> http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~soffa/cs851/bala.pdf is about it
[13:28] <xorAxAx> its older, though
[13:28] <hpk> yip, i think they already showed their approach in the last century
[13:30] <mwh> so, any ideas for what i should work on traveling tomorrow?
[13:31] <braintone> pedronis - r20614 - start of putting into text ideas and discussions about the JIT and JIT work Armin and me had or that were already floating in the air. Slightly provisional/draftish for now.
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[13:32] <hpk> mwh: reading a good book?
[13:34] <pedronis> mwh: there's interactive.py but if you don't feel touching it that's ok too
[13:34] <pedronis> mwh: or addining more nice naming to specialisation code by using alt_name
[13:35] <arigo> xorAxAx: well the C code produced by the bf "compiler" looks like "++*p;++*p;++*p;++*p;++*p;++*p;"
[13:35] <arigo> I'm sure some compilers will turn it into "*p+=6" and others will miss it
[13:35] <arigo> because it's not particularly common style
[13:35] <pedronis> mwh: now specialised graphs have all the same name mostly, so end in the final result with dull numbered names
[13:38] <mwh> ok, that sounds like a reasonable task
[13:38] <mwh> the specialization stuff
[13:39] <pedronis> mwh: you probably want to check out a copy of the old specialse and ann_override
[13:39] <pedronis> to get an idea how names were constructed before
[13:39] <pedronis> also annlowlevel.py
[13:40] <pedronis> notice that the old nameings can probably improved
[13:40] <pedronis> sometimes they were just incredibly too long
[13:55] <xorAxAx> arigo: some brainfuck compilers even optimise that one
[13:55] <xorAxAx> arigo: there is one that creates an elf i386 linux binary directly, written in bf.
[13:55] <xorAxAx> (which balances those + and - and folds them :))
----- silence for 17 minutes ----- [14:12] <mwh> pedronis: ok
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[14:49] <stakkars> hi friends!
[14:49] <Gromit> hi christian
[14:49] <stakkars> I'm in Gothenburg, hotel Opera
[14:49] <xorAxAx> hi Gromit
[14:49] <mwh> cool!
[14:50] <Gromit> i just logged in to find the cheapest provider to phone you
[14:50] <stakkars> Gromit,did you call me yesterday?ah!
[14:50] <Gromit> yep
[14:50] <stakkars> maybe this channel is the cheapest way:-)
[14:51] <Gromit> yep
[15:04] <arigo> hi Christian
[15:04] <arigo> welcome :-)
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[15:20] <Gromit> stakkars: are you still here?
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[15:22] Nick change: [rhymes] -> rhymes
[15:30] <stakkars> ok, hat to write some blurb to pypy-dev
[15:32] <Gromit> just reading it
[15:35] <Gromit> ok done
[15:35] <Gromit> just getting another cup of tea
[15:35] <stakkars> then I'lgo down and fethc a coffee.
[15:35] <stakkars> (4 mins)
[15:40] <Gromit> back
[15:41] <stakkars> me too
[15:41] <Gromit> or here?
[15:42] <lac> stakkars: are you coming over to my house?
[15:42] <lac> coming to bea's party?
[15:43] <stakkars> lac: Hi Laura, which day?
[15:44] <stakkars> I was planning to do some homework today,but if there's a party, I surely cannot resist :-)
[15:45] <stakkars> btw.: I think I just emitted a simple idea which might start "The PyPy Revolution" (TM)
[15:46] <xorAxAx> stakkars: is it similar to your old idea? :-)
[15:47] <stakkars> xorAxAx:how old? I'm just thinking more of what I just sent to pypy-dev
[15:47] <pedronis> stakkars: I read your mail, indeed the plan of substituting modules piecewise is also a way I thought Jython could use PyPy (when/if we get a Java backend)
[15:47] <xorAxAx> stakkars: i mean your last idea of how to rule the world
[15:48] <stakkars> what just hit me is this: I can use Stackless which needs porting anyway, to stepwise build the
[15:48] <stakkars> necessary framework to start melting builtin CPython modules away.
[15:48] <pedronis> stakkars: and improving how to write extensions (also for PyPy itself) is something we need to think about
[15:48] <stakkars> By this, we get a two-side approach of two was to move to PyPy. When PyPy and this approach
[15:48] <pedronis> but we need to balance this effort with the fact that the JIT work etc will need lot of attention and work
[15:48] <stakkars> have converged to the same thing, then we have the domination.
[15:49] <stakkars> sure. But the other end is able to create lots of funding.
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[15:50] <pedronis> well, it's indeed a matter of resources and to understand how to maximize results vs. efforts
[15:50] <pedronis> but indeed how general resource consumption and use need to be look at
[15:50] <xorAxAx> you want to write modules in rpython and ship them for cpython/cpython_sl users?
[15:50] <stakkars> xorAxAx: yes, exactly.
[15:51] <xorAxAx> hmm, what would be the first module to rewrite like that?
[15:51] <stakkars> pedronis: right, I would need to create new resources for this.
[15:51] <pedronis> as I said improving how we write extensions and separate compilation are something that we need for PyPy itself
[15:51] <stakkars> xorAxAx: the new deque (did it already), itertools, stacklessmodule
[15:52] <pedronis> but indeed the JIT needs caring love too at the moment
[15:52] <pedronis> and other stuff also
[15:52] <stakkars> I just want to add resource,not to take away, any.
[15:53] <xorAxAx> stakkars: but deque is already written in c for cpython users (nor)? so they wont have an advantage, right?
[15:54] <stakkars> xorAxAx: no, yes. I created similar code with RPython with high efficiency. The difference is that this code can be made Stackless withought worring about its implementation.
[15:55] <xorAxAx> yeah
[15:55] <stakkars> So *this* is my new concept for the tedious porting work:
[15:55] <stakkars> Instead of putting weeks into supporting all the new C code for new Python versions, I turn them into RPython modules,
[15:56] <stakkars> which are useful both for PyPy and for Stackless. This allows me to work on both projects at the same time.
[15:56] <Gromit> so pypy will get lot's of production ready standard modules
[15:56] <stakkars> And it gets Stackless away from its dead-end position, into something that can finally converge to the real PyPy.
[15:56] <stakkars> Gromit: I think so.
[15:57] <lac> stakkars: party tonight bea's hosue
[15:57] <pedronis> stakkars: yes, but this thing will probably need some design if it has to be done sort of right, and touching the tool chain. Just saying that we need to have a coherent plan and try to maximize results/changes ratio
[15:57] <stakkars> lac: when, and how to I get there?
[15:57] <lac> I think it starts at 1800.
[15:58] <stakkars> pedronis: sure. This is why I stopped working on this. We need to discuss design together.
[15:59] <pedronis> lac: 1700 the earliest
[15:59] <pedronis> at least that's what was in Bea mail I received
[16:00] <lac> aha. trust samuele to know the details best. :-)
[16:01] <pedronis> stakkars: the place is Eklandagatan 5 (floor 5)
[16:02] <stakkars> pedronis: I'm at central station, Opera
[16:03] <stakkars> just a party, or a special reason?
[16:03] <lac> sorry for that. it is a map.
[16:03] <stakkars> uh
[16:04] <jacob22|home> stakkars: You can either take a tram to Korsvägen and walk about 100 m from there, or you can come to our house and we will go together.
[16:04] <lac> http://www.gulasidorna.se/query?what=map&ax=&asearch=1&streetname=Eklandagatan+5
[16:05] <lac> this is nicer. Then you have to say you want the one in Göteborg.
[16:05] <lac> Bea has the first Xmas party of the season every year.
[16:05] <lac> It is a regular tradition.
[16:05] <tic> xmas party? never heard of that. :)
[16:08] <xorAxAx> Gromit: so you are interested into pypy now?
[16:08] <Gromit> i am and i always was
[16:09] <Gromit> the question is can I aford that sort of interest
[16:10] <xorAxAx> yeah
[16:11] <stakkars> jacob22|home: at what time do you leave? I need some work to get done and would probably come a bit later
[16:11] <Gromit> stakkars: should we postpone our talk?
[16:11] <Gromit> or discussion
[16:12] <stakkars> as you like. That's part of the work, but not all :-)
[16:12] <Gromit> IC
[16:13] <Gromit> ok, do want to start now?
[16:13] <stakkars> yes, I was ready for something quite a while ago
[16:13] <xorAxAx> .oO(negotiation overhead looks similar to a corba request)
[16:14] <Gromit> yep, reminds of PPP
[16:16] <xorAxAx> but PPP has a 2byte overhead for the actual session. so thats rather nice
[16:16] <jacob22|home> stakkars: We don't know exactly when we will leave. We have a ham in the oven that we need to wait for.
[16:17] <stakkars> :-P
[16:19] <braintone> pedronis - r20615 - some scattered notes about the L3 interpreter core ideas
[16:19] <Gromit> xorAxAx: I meant PPPs IPCP and LCP subprotocols
[16:20] <xorAxAx> yeah
[16:21] <Gromit> bot even with PPPoE and L2TP added, I will be much faster than stakkars :-]
[16:22] <xorAxAx> but LCP poses quite many questions, i havent seen a single one here :-)
[16:22] <Gromit> yep, looks like the access router is dead :)
[16:24] <Gromit> ssh stakkars /sbin/reboot
[16:24] <Gromit> maybe that helps
[16:25] <xorAxAx> how about trying to "send" a question? ;-)
[16:25] <Gromit> already did that 90min ago
[16:25] <xorAxAx> maybe again
[16:25] <Gromit> jep
[16:26] <Gromit> no reaction so far
[16:27] <Gromit> sigh
[16:28] <Gromit> ok now got some reaction:
[16:28] <Gromit> --- [stakkars] is away (I am currently away from the computer.)
[16:29] <xorAxAx> maybe he didnt see the query?
[16:30] <Gromit> maybe
[16:30] <Gromit> in the meanwhile, I will have some fun as writing invoices
[16:30] <Gromit> :)
[16:43] <stakkars> yawn
[16:44] <Gromit> once more
[16:46] <lac> stakkars: we will be here for a while, or at least I will. I am cooking a ham.
[16:47] <stakkars> lac: ok, I will stay a while. Have paid 150 bucks for the connection and should use it :-)
[16:49] <Gromit> stakkars: did you see my private messages?
[16:50] <stakkars> nothing but single words, so far.
[16:58] <stakkars> Gromit: I have written about 26 messages to you on the pricate channel. Can it be that they don't make it?
[16:58] <Gromit> ah
[16:58] <Gromit> yep
[16:58] <Gromit> of course
[16:59] <stakkars> what yep, did they vanish?
[16:59] <Gromit> i am registered freenode user
[16:59] <Gromit> freenode blocks private messages from unregistered users like you
[16:59] <stakkars> I'm probably not
[16:59] <Gromit> let me see
[16:59] <stakkars> but we had a conversation, months ago, which worked.
[16:59] <Gromit> yep you are not registered
[17:00] <stakkars> how do I do that?
[17:00] <stakkars> and why did it work before and no longer?
[17:01] <Gromit> hm
[17:01] <Gromit> let's try it again
[17:01] <Gromit> I deactivated the filter
[17:02] <Gromit> i don't know why it worked intermittedly
[17:02] stakkars (n=tismer@213.15.68.61) left irc: Excess Flood
[17:04] <xorAxAx> the censorship was activated less than two months ago
[17:04] <Gromit> I thougth i would never have any problems with it
[17:06] <xorAxAx> it was clear to me on the first day that it would make more problems than elimate them
[17:06] pedronis (n=Samuele_@c-178b70d5.022-54-67626719.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[17:06] stakkars (n=tismer@213.15.68.61) joined #pypy.
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[17:06] <stakkars> Gromit: waah. I pasted a page of text to you, which threw me out of the channel :-(
[17:07] <Gromit> this sort of flooding will throw you out of any irc server i know of
[17:08] <xorAxAx> yeah, the client has to throttle
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----- silence for 41 minutes ----- [18:22] <lac> stakkars: my ham is done.
[18:22] <lac> stakkars: this means jacob and I can leave for Bea's at any time.
[18:23] <lac> stakkars: are we waiting for you, or are you finding your own way?
[18:23] <lac> stakkars: we don't mind we just don't want to get this wrong
[18:23] Action: lac is away: bea's party
[18:33] <stakkars> lac: ok, maybe I com,maybe not. (Lotsto do). Thanks a lot!!
[18:36] <lac> but we will not wait for you. you can find your own way.
[18:36] <lac> take the 4 or 5 tram to Körsvagen, then walk.
[18:36] <lac> ok?
[18:36] <stakkars> yes, sure, fine with me.
[18:38] <lac> that's from Brunnsparken. Or from the Central station 13 and 14 also work. you are located between Brunnsparken and the Central Station.
[18:44] <stakkars> yes
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----- silence for 1 hr and 4 minutes ----- [23:33] Action: xorAxAx remarks that entering pypy into google might yield the domain pypy.de which is not related to pypy at all, and not suitable for people below a certain age
[23:48] <xorAxAx> one might think about using name rights at this point IMHO
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[23:54] Nick change: SIGVTALRM -> mfp
[00:00] --- Sun Dec 4 2005